tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post6593918073105161319..comments2023-11-02T04:21:10.340-04:00Comments on The way the Ball bounces: The Insufficiency of Naturalism by Robert StewartBallBounceshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08776039024486455199noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-66475389277808897932009-12-03T17:43:19.430-05:002009-12-03T17:43:19.430-05:00Is there an immaterial supervisory "self"...Is there an immaterial supervisory "self", or are we just molecules in motion and nothing more?<br /><br />Do we control the quantum flucts, or do they control us? <br /><br />For evidence of an immaterial mind, go here:<br /><br />http://www.iands.es/bibliografia/Sartori_Fenwick.pdfBallBounceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776039024486455199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-2194392118832466252009-12-03T17:17:31.759-05:002009-12-03T17:17:31.759-05:00No.
The question was whether or not free will is ...No.<br /><br />The question was whether or not free will is a contradiction of naturalism.<br />Quantum theory makes free will possible, it doesn't imply it. But that is enough to refute the above argument.<br /><br />If there is such a thing as free will (and again, I'm sure that we are sufficiently complex as to be incapable of distinguishing free will from the illusion of it in ourselves), then it has developed, over time, in some organisms. It sure isn't inherent in everything. I don't know where you get that idea from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-52754179429129202002009-12-01T18:30:17.641-05:002009-12-01T18:30:17.641-05:00Since quantum theory presumably governs all of the...Since quantum theory presumably governs all of the natural universe, then, logically, I assume you believe that slugs and worms and bugs and ferns and trees and rocks equally have free will. And since quantum theory is presumably considered constant over time, then human beings have as much free will now as we had when we were in our bacteria or worm state, right? Or, is free will, like love, consciousness, self-consciousness, moral sense, rational thought, logic, sense of justice, honor, integrity, etc. etc. etc. something that emerged through an unbroken natural chain of cause-and-effect from the Big Bang onwards, and thus existed, at least latently, in the stardust and water of the universe?BallBounceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776039024486455199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-12422257326610448752009-12-01T18:26:07.404-05:002009-12-01T18:26:07.404-05:00"Oh, and btw., atheism is a worldview, but on..."Oh, and btw., atheism is a worldview, but only in the sense that not believing in the tooth fairy is one."<br /><br />""The question about God is not merely a question about another entity but a question about the character of the universe as a whole. The rejection of the cosmological argument implicitly carries with it a commitment to a rival metaphysical view, such as pantheism or naturalism. Ultimately, the question is not, 'Can God's existence be proved?' but 'Which metaphysical view is most plausible?'" -- C. Stephen EvansBallBounceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776039024486455199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-3610548182355360512009-12-01T07:43:47.935-05:002009-12-01T07:43:47.935-05:00Sorry about the double post, my browser messed up ...Sorry about the double post, my browser messed up the OpenID-login and I thought that the first attempt failed because of that. Turns out it didn't. Maybe you could just delete the copy.<br /><br />On free will and materialism (or better, naturalism, let's stick with one word, shall we?):<br /><br />It's quite simple, really.<br />The Newtonian view of the world, classical physics, was indeed completely deterministic, from which f course followed that free will was indeed an illusion.<br />The advent of quantum mechanics put paid to that. Quantum mechanics is not deterministic, therefore the universe isn't, therefore we aren't, therefore free will can exist.<br />That's not to say it necessarily does. I very much doubt that we'd be able to tell the difference.<br /><br />As for your questions, some of the answers are simple and biochemical, and I'd ask you to look it upt for yourself in the literature, if you're interested. For others no worldview provides answers so I don't see how those should be a failure of naturalism, specifically. To quickly answer them all: All the evidence points towards it. For example: My mother shows all the signs/behaviours commonly associated with love, so the assumption is that she loves me.<br />But all that is beside the point.<br /><br />The point is that none of your questions have anything to do with my (or any other) worldview. I don't see the way I view the world as a vehicle for easy answers, I see it as a vehicle to explain the world to me.<br />Unanswered question ('What is love?', for example) are not a reason to change the worldview, only (within the current construct of assumptions and conclusions) unanserable ones are.<br /><br />A worldview shouldn't provide you with a ready answer for everything (this is where Stewarts criterion 'Comprehensiveness' fails), but rather equip one with the tools necessary to explain everything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-36213499914684810002009-11-30T16:34:49.317-05:002009-11-30T16:34:49.317-05:00"Following from that, that the scientific met..."Following from that, that the scientific method is a valid method to decide what is real and what is not. Everything else follows from that."<br /><br />Please provide the scientific proofs for:<br /><br />1) you are experiencing pain/happiness/anger/doubt, etc.<br /><br />2. your mother loves you.<br /><br />3. you are dealing with a real person when responding to my blog posts, and not e.g., computer-generated stuff.<br /><br />4. Other minds besides yours exist.<br /><br />5. Your mind exists.<br /><br />Otherwise, you presumably can make no statements about such matters.BallBounceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776039024486455199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-88803430543641581002009-11-30T16:30:26.466-05:002009-11-30T16:30:26.466-05:00"materalism does not preclude free will."..."materalism does not preclude free will."<br /><br />You better spend some time over at naturalism.org.BallBounceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776039024486455199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-74016651117961589182009-11-30T16:30:09.998-05:002009-11-30T16:30:09.998-05:00LC2C: Thank you for your withering critique -- we...LC2C: Thank you for your withering critique -- we are all left speechless at the profundity of it! And posting it twice amounts to a double-witness, so it must be true!BallBounceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776039024486455199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-66071018884229527032009-11-30T15:11:30.584-05:002009-11-30T15:11:30.584-05:00Now, the critique of the critique.
On his descrip...Now, the critique of the critique.<br /><br />On his description of worldviews:<br />3) Prescriptiveness: Actually, for many worldviews this seems to boil down to "everybody should have this one". Others don't have any prescriptive element at all.<br /><br />Questions:<br />I doubt that worldviews can be adequately boiled down to these, but I'll let them stand.<br /><br />His criteria however are something else. The last one, 'Contentment' is clearly bollocks. Why should it be a requirement to make me feel good?<br />Any worldview not rooted in reality is necessarily bullshit (See for example Stewart's criteria 1-3). Since reality can't be required to make me feel good about it, neither can a worldview. 'Comperhensiveness' isn't much better. There is no worldview that explains all the relevant data. There are some who maybe will, one day, other never will. The correct criterion would be if the worldview can IN PRINCIPLE explain everything, not if it already has. But since that is unverifyable we can as just drop it.<br /><br /><br />I won't go into his disection of the naturalist worldview in detail, I think it sort of misses the point, but it isn't wrong, so I'll let it stand.<br /><br />So, on to his critique:<br />Coherence: False. Rational though does not contradict the naturalist view. Just because we can't yet explain it doesn't mean it can't be explained without contradicting Naturalist core beliefs.<br />Correlation: False again, materalism does not preclude free will. The speaker seems to be stuck in a Newtonian world.<br />Comprehensiveness: Invalid criterion, moving on.<br />Consistency: False again. Just asserting that it is unlivable is not enough, you know.<br />Contentment: Invalid criterion.<br /><br />He really hasn't thought this through. Or, he is allowing his religious worldview to taint his evalutation of the naturalistic one.<br /><br /><br /><i>"What is your world-view?"</i><br />That this world is logical. Following from that, that the scientific method is a valid method to decide what is real and what is not. Everything else follows from that.<br /><br />Oh, and btw., atheism is a worldview, but only in the sense that not believing in the tooth fairy is one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-26971515590932208212009-11-30T13:48:30.914-05:002009-11-30T13:48:30.914-05:00A critique of the critique, but before I get into ...A critique of the critique, but before I get into that:<br /><br />Christianity:<br />1. Who am I - the pinnacle of creation, created and installed by god to rule the world.<br />2. Where Am I - The centre of the world, ruler over nature.<br />3. What's Wrong? We are sinful.<br />4. What's the solution? Turn to god, ask for forgiveness, abide by his rules.<br /><br />So, let's criticize! For brevity I'll stick with the 4 answers above whenever possible.<br /><b>Coherence:</b> None. 3) is a glaring contradiction of 1).<br /><b>Correlation:</b> Nope. 1) and 2) are contradicted by almost everything we know about the universe and our planet.<br /><b>Comprehensiveness:</b> Far from it. By replacing most meaningful answers with 'goddidit', it actually manages to explain very little. Whenever it strays from the philosophical to the physical, it gives wrong answers.<br /><b>Consistency:</b> Unfortunately, apparently it is.<br /><b>Contentment</b> It does give contentment, albeit a rather hollow one in my opinion, but whatever floats your boat.<br /><br />So, christianity fails the 'Stewart-Test'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20385137.post-59942402540289272592009-11-30T13:48:17.434-05:002009-11-30T13:48:17.434-05:00A critique of the critique, but before I get into ...A critique of the critique, but before I get into that:<br /><br />Christianity:<br />1. Who am I - the pinnacle of creation, created and installed by god to rule the world.<br />2. Where Am I - The centre of the world, ruler over nature.<br />3. What's Wrong? We are sinful.<br />4. What's the solution? Turn to god, ask for forgiveness, abide by his rules.<br /><br />So, let's criticize! For brevity I'll stick with the 4 answers above whenever possible.<br /><b>Coherence:</b> None. 3) is a glaring contradiction of 1).<br /><b>Correlation:</b> Nope. 1) and 2) are contradicted by almost everything we know about the universe and our planet.<br /><b>Comprehensiveness:</b> Far from it. By replacing most meaningful answers with 'goddidit', it actually manages to explain very little. Whenever it strays from the philosophical to the physical, it gives wrong answers.<br /><b>Consistency:</b> Unfortunately, apparently it is.<br /><b>Contentment</b> It does give contentment, albeit a rather hollow one in my opinion, but whatever floats your boat.<br /><br />So, christianity fails the 'Stewart-Test'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com