Great photo. With open eyes the diversity of life is everywhere waiting for us to enjoy. Watched "Expelled" , the Ben Stein movie about Darwinism vrs Intelligent Design on the weekend. Highly recommend it.
I feel sorry for you guys, in a way, that you don't have any conception of how much you don't understand.
You really are unable to see how futile it is to argue from your perspective. The scientific perspective is overwhelmingly supported by evidence, and ever more accurate models. Meanwhile, you've hitched your wagons to a perspective that cannot advance, by its very nature. It is ever stagnant. Its fundamental assumption (either the existence of God, or of design) requires that we stop asking questions because we can't possibly know or understand beyond a certain point.
There is no debate on the science on the level that you imagine. The debate now is in the details, and in improving the models. God is not required.
My advice is to stick him somewhere near the Big Bang. At least you have a gap wide enough to fit him there, for now. But - the gaps are closing pretty quickly.
No David it is you who is to be pitied. To be so constrained by the myopia of 'science' which is as you say "postulating is the same as proof". The evidence you so boldly uphold proves nothing. No one witnessed what you allege to have happened and as such it is mere speculation. That you accept your beliefs by faith is no different than the most ardent animist claiming that "mother wolf" gave birth to us all.
In a mindless, unwilled, undesigned, uncreated universe, having consciousness in order to feel is an absurdity.
In an uncreated universe, having feelings of sorrow is an absurdity.
In an uncreated universe, the existence of thought, let alone rational thought, is an absurdity.
In an uncreated universe, your scientific belief that reality is rational and can be rationally apprehended, is an absurdity.
At least our apprehension of reality is such that our existence as inquiring humans is characterized by coherence rather than absurdity.
As for your viewpoint that belief in God stagnates inquiry, you must know that theism drove scientific investigation in the first place, and that a key tenet of the recently developed anthropic principle is that the universe appears to be uniquely designed to be discovered, and us for discovery.
The real astonishment should be that in an uncreated, undesigned, unwilled, unintended universe, creatures arose with consciousness, intelligence, and the propensity to "look outwards" and to ask not just "what" and "how", but also "why".
What's amazing about all of those things is not THAT they exist, but how they came to be, and their nature, and the science gets better and better at describing that. It is fascinating and beautiful, and far more exciting, complex and magnificent than the simple answer you guys are peddling.
The church was instrumental in protecting the science of the ancients, but so what? Everything was in the service of religion. As soon as that relationship became inconvenient, religion starting parting with, and fighting with, science. I say good riddance.
You attribute all of these ridiculous things to the requirement of creation or design, when in fact, there is no indication that that is necessary. Even the most popular argument, the fine tuning argument, can be explained in a number of ways that make far more sense than design, and every day people discover better explanations to boot.
There is no reason the universe HAS TO have meaning, other than what we create, for ourselves. My daughter gives my life meaning. My job gives my life meaning. I create purpose and I recognize beauty.
Everything that you claim requires a God would exist without him. Why bother?
Nice if it were true David but you have no idea what it is we are describing and all our efforts are like describing the beauty of a prairie sunset to a man born blind. In your blindness you feel the warmth as the sun slowly dips below the horizon never knowing and never seeing all the subtle shades and hues as the sky changes colour. That you remain so blind is the cause of our pity for your condition.
To paraphrase someone far greater than myself, "For they know not of what they speak".
You see David we all have gone through what you now hold as highest truth and I am willing to bet that all of us have agreed with you in the past. However to remain fixed without growth is not healthy and some of us through a Gift not deserved or earned have discovered something we could not even imagine a few short moments ago. For you see it is you in your intransigence that is being the less scientist than those of us who have surpassed scientism with something far greater. Why restrict yourself to that which you know when you can explore that which you do not know or understand?
There is someone calling you, "Come and follow Me".
7 comments:
Great photo. With open eyes the diversity of life is everywhere waiting for us to enjoy.
Watched "Expelled" , the Ben Stein movie about Darwinism vrs Intelligent Design on the weekend. Highly recommend it.
I feel sorry for you guys, in a way, that you don't have any conception of how much you don't understand.
You really are unable to see how futile it is to argue from your perspective. The scientific perspective is overwhelmingly supported by evidence, and ever more accurate models. Meanwhile, you've hitched your wagons to a perspective that cannot advance, by its very nature. It is ever stagnant. Its fundamental assumption (either the existence of God, or of design) requires that we stop asking questions because we can't possibly know or understand beyond a certain point.
There is no debate on the science on the level that you imagine. The debate now is in the details, and in improving the models. God is not required.
My advice is to stick him somewhere near the Big Bang. At least you have a gap wide enough to fit him there, for now. But - the gaps are closing pretty quickly.
No David it is you who is to be pitied. To be so constrained by the myopia of 'science' which is as you say "postulating is the same as proof". The evidence you so boldly uphold proves nothing. No one witnessed what you allege to have happened and as such it is mere speculation. That you accept your beliefs by faith is no different than the most ardent animist claiming that "mother wolf" gave birth to us all.
"postulating is the same as proof".
What? Proof is a pretty strict matter. I don't know where you got this ridiculous idea. Just try pulling that one at a PhD defense.
The evidence you so boldly uphold proves nothing
Really? What evidence are you referring to?
No one witnessed what you allege to have happened and as such it is mere speculation
So if no one witnesses a murder, then it is only speculated to have happened? Even so, we can look at the evidence and construct what happened.
That you accept your beliefs by faith is no different than the most ardent animist claiming that "mother wolf" gave birth to us all.
Right. It's exactly the same. Note: You should check the lead level in your water. I'm a bit worried about you. Watch for wristdrop.
Feel sorry for us?!
In a mindless, unwilled, undesigned, uncreated universe, having consciousness in order to feel is an absurdity.
In an uncreated universe, having feelings of sorrow is an absurdity.
In an uncreated universe, the existence of thought, let alone rational thought, is an absurdity.
In an uncreated universe, your scientific belief that reality is rational and can be rationally apprehended, is an absurdity.
At least our apprehension of reality is such that our existence as inquiring humans is characterized by coherence rather than absurdity.
As for your viewpoint that belief in God stagnates inquiry, you must know that theism drove scientific investigation in the first place, and that a key tenet of the recently developed anthropic principle is that the universe appears to be uniquely designed to be discovered, and us for discovery.
The real astonishment should be that in an uncreated, undesigned, unwilled, unintended universe, creatures arose with consciousness, intelligence, and the propensity to "look outwards" and to ask not just "what" and "how", but also "why".
What's amazing about all of those things is not THAT they exist, but how they came to be, and their nature, and the science gets better and better at describing that. It is fascinating and beautiful, and far more exciting, complex and magnificent than the simple answer you guys are peddling.
The church was instrumental in protecting the science of the ancients, but so what? Everything was in the service of religion. As soon as that relationship became inconvenient, religion starting parting with, and fighting with, science. I say good riddance.
You attribute all of these ridiculous things to the requirement of creation or design, when in fact, there is no indication that that is necessary. Even the most popular argument, the fine tuning argument, can be explained in a number of ways that make far more sense than design, and every day people discover better explanations to boot.
There is no reason the universe HAS TO have meaning, other than what we create, for ourselves. My daughter gives my life meaning. My job gives my life meaning. I create purpose and I recognize beauty.
Everything that you claim requires a God would exist without him. Why bother?
Nice if it were true David but you have no idea what it is we are describing and all our efforts are like describing the beauty of a prairie sunset to a man born blind. In your blindness you feel the warmth as the sun slowly dips below the horizon never knowing and never seeing all the subtle shades and hues as the sky changes colour. That you remain so blind is the cause of our pity for your condition.
To paraphrase someone far greater than myself, "For they know not of what they speak".
You see David we all have gone through what you now hold as highest truth and I am willing to bet that all of us have agreed with you in the past. However to remain fixed without growth is not healthy and some of us through a Gift not deserved or earned have discovered something we could not even imagine a few short moments ago. For you see it is you in your intransigence that is being the less scientist than those of us who have surpassed scientism with something far greater. Why restrict yourself to that which you know when you can explore that which you do not know or understand?
There is someone calling you, "Come and follow Me".
Peace
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