Wednesday, June 22, 2011

The Christian Duty To Accept Evolution?

House fly illustration. The original caption r...                               Image via Wikipedia
In a well written article, entitled "The Christian duty to understand God’s creation", Dr. Paul Brown of Trinity Western University responds to an earlier National Post / Huffington Post opinion piece, "The Christian Duty To Accept Evolution".

Hmmff!


Dr. Brown notes some of the things darwinian evolution does not adequately account for:

• the sudden appearance of life forms in the fossil record
• the stasis that follows
• the coding and translation systems in life as they actually exist
• the origin of life
• the origin of multiple layers of programming in the organism
• coordination among those multiple layers
• how those multiple layers relate to evolving function and development
• how a fruit fly could change to a house fly or vice versa
• how or why a common primate ancestor would diverge into chimps and humans

Dr. Brown concludes:
For any thinking Christian and/or scientist, it should at least raise eyebrows that evolutionary theory actually explains very little about evolution, about how, as a process, it could work to change organism A into organism B particularly when expanded over the breadth of molecules to man. It is a theory of similarity masquerading as a theory of functional explanation. Regarding the latter, it is a poor theory indeed. 
As Michael Behe has said, the darwinian mechanism of random mutation has been demonstrated to have very feeble creative powers. It simply does not provide an adequate explanation for the teleological complexities of life as it exists.

I like the way another guy put it: "I don't reject darwinism because of its religious implications; I reject it because it is poor science".
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24 comments:

Anonymous said...

So your choice is between something that all of the available evidence supports, and something which NONE of the available evidence supports? That seems to be remarkably like deciding between whether the theory of gravity is real, or whether invisible unicorns are actually holding everything down.

RkBall said...

I find people who are obsessed with invisible unicorns fascinating. Where can we meet?

Joe said...

Actually Annon all the available evidence does not point to evolution. Only the evidence you find acceptable if held just right and put in just the right light shows even a hint of evolution. The real evidence shows all the hall marks of design and execution in a scale and detail that we humans are completely incapable of reproducing. Oh and gravity also is evidence of design not evolution.

Anonymous said...

I try to avoid meeting with crazy people whenever possible, Richard; besides, it sounds like you may have a little bit more on your mind than discussing your delusions.
And Joe, in order to believe your "magic man in the sky done it" nonsense, I would also have to believe that said magic man deliberately engineered things in such a way as to not only OBSCURE any evidence of its existence, but to do everything in its power to make observers come to the conclusion that it simply doesn't exist. Endogenous retroviruses are only one of many proofs of evolution; have you aske dthe invisible refrigerator pixies to come into your life with an open heart yet?

RkBall said...

Anon -- re invitation to meet: you need to be able to detect satire/humor to successfully navigate this site.

RkBall said...

Joe -- good point about gravity.

RkBall said...

Joe -- either SDC has cloned himself, is going incognito, or these atheist posts we are responding to are being auto-generated by an evil computer designed to absorb theist energies!

Anonymous said...

No, I remain (as always) SDC; and it takes a REAL obsession to build up a cult around fairy tales like those of your superstition. Gravity is evidence of MASS, and not of an invisible magic man, Joe.

Joe said...

Nice hypothesis Caveman-SDC-Annony. Now for the real test: You toss, "Endogenous retroviruses are only one of many proofs of evolution" like its received wisdom. I think you simply googled 'proof of evolution'. In order to prove you actually understand why endogenous retroviruses are proof of evolution and not intelligent design please explain your statement in your own words. If your understanding of the 'evolutionary proof of endogenous retroviruses' is anything like your 'googled' understanding of Biblical criticism your explanation will be worth a few yuks.

SDC said...

Endogenous retroviruses PROVE evolution by proving that (among other things) modern humans share a distant ancestor with the other great apes; this is shown by identical mutation reactions in our DNA that are a result of virus infections that our common ancestor suffered from, and those mutations have been passed along to not only US, but to our closest primate "cousins" that also branched off of that ancestor. Now, if you had anything more than "I dunno; magic man in the sky musta done it", your blatherings might be worth something more than light entertainment, Joe. If your imaginary magic man in the sky was the "designer" that you'd like to imagine, why would it "design" our species with such a flaw as the inability to synthesize our own vitamin C, something that most other mammals, including rats, can do? Is your magic man careless, or merely incompetent?

Joe said...

So Someone capable of making space, time, matter, life, living things etc must forever use a completely different genetic coding for each species? In other words the designers of Windows 7 can not use any of the code they developed for DOS? So the creator of the Ford Focus must completely do away with the 4 wheels used on the Model T? Funnily enough we have evidence that the coding for Windows and DOS are similar because they were intelligently designed by the same species which is why they share common traits. The Model T and the Focus share similarities because they were intelligently designed by the same company. Sorry there Caveman-SDC-Annony but by the evidence you supplied your theory remains a theory and not a fact.

SDC said...

Joe, YOU'RE the one claiming such fantastic things for this imaginary "god" of yours, so why would it make such obvious mistakes in "design"? You're also forgetting that your little magic book lays out two completely different orders of "creation" (gen.1: animals before man, gen.2: man before animals), which negates your argument.

Joe said...

Caveman-SDC-Annony

Lets look at your theory. Nothing begat something without cause. That something that came from nothing without cause organized itself again without cause into matter, light, space, time etc. Then without cause the uncaused organization further organized itself into the most complex coding imaginable and took on again completely uncaused thing called life. This uncaused life then took a further step and completely without cause invented this thing called evolution whereby the uncaused life develops evermore complex life forms. In fact the uncaused life forms uncausededly came up with the uncaused realization that there is no such thing as cause. Of course that theory blows holes in the other theory that everything must have its cause. However since it is Caveman-SDC-Annony's uncaused theory lets look at the uncaused specialized cells that perform uncaused specialized functions in an uncaused but totally design like fashion. For example in the uncaused more uncaused complex uncaused life forms one member of of one uncaused gender actually has find cause to put his uncaused semen into an uncaused vagina of the uncaused other uncaused gender so that the uncaused semen can uncausedely move up the uncaused mucus in the uncaused vagina into the uncaused uterus and uncausedly joing with the uncaused egg which then uncausedly implants itself into the uncaused uterine wall and uncausedly forms a uncaused new uncaused life form.

And uncaused you uncausedly think I uncaused believe in uncaused fairy tales. Now according to the Book you uncausedly think is uncausedly magic describes one such as uncaused you. A fool says in his heart, "There is no God". Are you a fool for not believing in God? In way I suppose but the truth is you are a fool for believing in causeless causation.

SDC said...

Joe, YOU might be enough of a fool to buy "it must be magic" as some sort of an "explanation" for something, but fewer and fewer people are, and everytime science shows up one of your superstition's claims as the unfounded BS it is, more and more people flee from your nonsense. In order to make your baloney believable, you would not only have to prove the existence of your imaginary invisible magic man, you would have to prove that it is your particular sub-sect of your particular sect of your particular cult that has any sort of relation to said imaginary invisible magic man, rather than those relating to the hundreds of thousands of other imaginary invisible magic men that have been dreamt up by weak-minded clods like yourself.

Joe said...

Well Caveman-SDC-Annony the problem you have is that you have no idea about what I believe. You keep thinking that I believe in magic which I most certainly do not. You think I believe in a man in the sky which again I certainly do not. You keep thinking that I believe in Pixies again I certainly do not. I would love to explain it to you but your 'uncaused' brain is completely incapable of understanding it.

However since you believe you and everything around you is uncaused it must be of no consequence. According to your idea nothing matters so why are you so worked up trying to convince others that nothing matters? You are in a state I call being in the philosophical sewer. Really if nothing matters and lets be honest here if we are all uncaused then truly nothing matters then why do you spend so much time and effort trying to get others to believe in your nothingness? According to you, you are nothing, I am nothing, Richard is nothing, there is only a brief meaningless interlude between a meaningless birth and a meaningless death which returns you to meaningless nothingness so why do you get all worked up over nothing. Wouldn't your time be better spent getting drunk, or high, or ..... After all the ideas and philosophies of nothings is meaningless.

So run along Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing you only have a short time left. Don't waste it here.

SDC said...

"Magic" is your ONLY explanation, fool, as it is the way by which you attempt to "explain" anything which you do not understand, just as those before you did. Bad weather? "Magic man in the sky done it." Crops failed? "Magic man in the sky done it." Cattle diseased? "Magic man in the sky done it." Children died? "Magic man in the sky done it." Volcano erupted? "Magic man in the sky done it." Lightning strikes caused a forest fire? "Magic man in the sky done it." "Magic man in the sky done it" is the catch-all "answer" that you halfwits turn to that lets you off the hook for answering any question truthfully, because you simply wipe your hands of the question. That "answer" was BS then, and it's BS now, Joe, no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise. Worse than that, your cult (and others) deliberately try to HINDER actual scientific progress, through such pronouncements as "Reason is the devil's harlot" (Martin Luther). Your cult depends on having its followers as duped, deluded, brainwashed and stupid as possible, because the second they stop believing that your cult speaks for an imaginary invisible omnipotent magic man in the sky, your cult's house of cards starts to crumble. Like I have said many times before, I honestly don't CARE if you want to lie to yourself until the cows come home, but don't try to pass that shit off as "the truth" unless you have scientific evidence to support it, fool.

Joe said...

I feel sorry for Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing. Not only is he clueless about my beliefs he is equally clueless about what he believes. He waves his favourite shibboleth around despite the fact he doesn't understand its meaning. "Science", which Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing believes means anti-theistic proof actually means testing and trying which is something he refuses to do! Why does he refuse? Because when he a kid he thought he conducted the definitive experiment. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sometimes I wonder just how impoverished we would all be if every 'scientist' followed Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing's example. I can just imagine some old 'scientist' who looks through the new microscope. Of course no one told him to put a slide underneath the lens so he looks through the polished lens and sees nothing. Oh well no point in arguing with him about the living microorganisms he just 'proved' that there is no such thing as microorganisms. Ah yes we might as well give up trying to cure cancer because one experience can tell anyone that cancer is incurable.

Anonymous said...

I've already TOLD you I tried your "experiment" once upon a time, Joe, and the results were identical to what I'd see if I did the same for any other imaginary "god"; exactly how many times do you think your "experiment" has been tried through history, fool? Have you got any explanation for the immense number of people that arrive at a DIFFERENT imaginary "god" than yours? How about all of those people that (we'd have to assume) were utterly IGNORED by your imaginary god? Are you seriously suggesting that those people who's unanswered prayers for the "cure" of their terminal illness or for their loved ones simply didn't "believe enough", idiot? Science has nothing to learn from your superstition because your entire history has been "Magic man in the sky done it; now don't ask any more questions." Your cult (as all others) is a malignant growth that is slowly withering under the light of reality, and that is one of the things that I can be thankful for.
SDC

Joe said...

Oh dear the longer this goes on the more difficulty I have deciding whether to laugh at Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing or have pity on him. Not only does he claim, very unscientifically, I must add, that his childhood experiment proved what it obviously didn't prove but he then launches into the old 'mad at God' routine. To paraphrase; "I don't believe in God (I'm really mad at Him) because He didn't perform the miracles I demanded of Him". Snicker, snort, guffaw! Why do you think that God has to do ANYTHING you ask of Him? This is His creation and His story line. He does with it what He Will. We are here by His Grace, each for our allotted time. In those times are times of blessing and times of trial. Sometimes the trials seem more than we can bear. Sometimes the blessing is more than we can handle. Sometimes our lives seem prolonged needlessly sometimes they are cut way too short.

As a dear Christian brother says, "If I had a God I could understand, I would have a really stupid God and one that certainly could not have made all that I am and that I see". "If I had a God I could boss around then I would be worshiping something akin to Santa Claus". "The God I love and serve I do not understand, I do not boss around for I am His creation".

SDC said...

No, fool, I'm not "mad" at your imaginary "god", any more than I'm "mad" at the abominable snowman; what I'm "mad" at is the fact that deluded clowns like yourself can talk yourself into believing utter nonsense and FAIRY TALES, and that goes not only for your cult, but for ALL cults. There is an identical amount of evidence for ALL of your nonsense, meaning that you arrived at your current superstition through nothing more than random chance, and if you had happened to be born in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, you would right now be claiming that I was "mad at allah", halfwit.

Joe said...

Atta boy there Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing, you keep telling yourself you are not angry. (snicker).

Your not being angry is the reason you spend so much time arguing about the existence of the object of your non-anger right? (snort).

Obviously the respect you show others by running about calling those with whom you disagree, delusional fools is the result of your non-anger right? (Guffaw).

Yeah right there Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing your not angry you just have a mission from the non-existing to convince all of us who believe in the Existing that the Existing really doesn't exist. Ahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Whoooo boy I'm going to have to stop. My sides are killing me!

Have a nice meaningless non-existence there Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing and may the Existing bless you.

SDC said...

And keep telling yourself that you're not "really" going to die, just as long as you can keep believing your lies about an invisible magic man in the sky, Joe. If you need to lie to yourself to deal with reality, that shows me that you're not READY to deal with reality.

Joe said...

Ah poor old Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing he still doesn't understand my beliefs. Not that I would expect him too of course. A person living in darkness can not understand light. He thinks that I somehow deny death! Having witnessed it over and over and over again how can I now somehow deny it? Of course death is real. In fact it is just as real as the Great I AM. As I have preached in the past death is the proof of life! Can it be said that anything has truly lived that does not taste death? Its one of the ways I know that my God lives. He lives because He died!

Now as to the other nonsense about me believing in a "man in sky". I guess Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing didn't listen when I told him last time that the "man" is not in the sky but rather the sky, in fact the whole physical universe is in God. Were it not so He could not be God. Now I know that is completely beyond Caveman-SDC-Annony-Meaningless-Nothing's ken so I won't bother taking anymore of Richard's band width. Thanks for hosting Richard.

SDC said...

So do you have any actual EVIDENCE for any of your BS spiel, Joe, or just the exact same sort of nonsense claims that EVERY cult since time immemorial has made? Once again, we get to the point where you have to PROVE your BS, not just make pronouncements in the fashion of snake-oil hustlers of times long past. Your cult is in the business of selling an imaginary product, no different than selling deeds to property on Saturn, because no-one's ever going to come back and say "Hey, hustler, where's that eternal life I was promised?"

"... nothing intellectually compelling or challenging.. bald assertions coupled to superstition... woefully pathetic"